You expressed your feelings with much, much less cursing and ranting than I would have.  Which I suppose is fine.

Only here.  When the fateful day arrives and we get each other good and drunk I might share the other half of my rant.  It consists primarily of obscene epithets and anatomical impossibilities.  You’d like it.

You articulate this much better than I did by saying to the husband; “fucking freaks”.  Although I was more succint. :-)

fucking freaks.

is there, like, a “rant of the month” award i can nominate you for?  very, very well put.

i’d like to stand behind you, wearing a leather jacket and gently smacking my palm with a crowbar, while you say this.

And I’ll be Bryan’s side-kick.

dude.  you rock.

I wish that I could express my thoughts on the subject as well as you just did.

I grow to distrust fundamentalist more every day.

I’m so relieved that pigheadedness is recognized as such - thanks for the kind words on the writing, but when someone is so full of shit it’s hard not to smell it and tell it.

Excellent -and eloquent- post. Thank you.

okay, i got the idea of the expand button now, but my hair trigger knee jerk reactionism is still getting the better of me.  our legal system is based more on plato and cicero’s concepts of the republic, hamurabi’s code and iriquois tradition of confederacy and less on the bible.  when the founding fathers mentioned god they were referring to a vague creator figures, not the yod-he-va-he, jehovah, cum jesus christ.  most of our founding rabble rousers were in fact deists (sort of like an agnostic) and not firm believers in the christian bible.  matter of fact jefferson edited his own version of the bible and removed all reference to god and christ.  but more importantly...it is fucking alabama, who cares?  have you ever been to dixie?  i thought i fell back in time 100 years when i was there.  polite people but definitely not the most socially eveolved group i have ever met.

Jeremy you are too right - I didn’t get into the details but they are right out there for *intelligent* people to recognize.  But I do concern myself with the goings-on in Alabama as they can set precedent nationally and can give moral vindication and support to a segment of society that I think is entirely to satisfied with itself already.  I’m glad it’s getting shut down down there before the “movement” has a chance to spread to high-impact states.

excellent - this is a very well thought out post that reflects what i’ve been thinking, but says it a lot better then i ever could! :)

i have a slightly different take on this.  perhaps it’s because i live, by choice, in one of those nominally roman catholic countries that “foster(s) state-supported religion” (or did until 1905) and where actually society is as far from its religious origins as it’s possible to be.  in fact, fundamentalist islam is far more present in this society than even the laxest christianity.

or perhaps it’s because, by choice or by calling, i have converted to roman catholicism and have a growing appreciation for the world described by the church and its teachings.

it would be idealistic - in a way i, for all my faith and hope, am not - to say the world would be better if state-supported religion were the norm. it might be idealistic to say we’d all be better off if god were more integrated into our lives, but this i do believe.

i also happen to think it’s naïve to claim separation of church and state as one of the founding freedoms of the u.s.a. the settlers came from a society of religious oppression. let’s remember what that meant, for them - it meant you had to be anglican and worship as the king did or you got thrown into jail or tossed into a boat and shipped to australia. when they wanted freedom of religion they wanted the freedom to practice and worship as they believed, as catholics, as quakers, as jews, without having a monarch tell them their god was wrong and they would be punished for following him. they wanted other freedoms as well, of course.

let’s not confuse the issue. freedom of religion and freedom from religion are two very different things. i’m not saying i agree with moore’s actions or his motivations, or the symbolism of forcing god into a state structure, but i’m not sure i entirely agree with your rant, either.  (nicely written, though.)

Romy we may be closer to each other on this than you think.  I think the First Amendment addresses your dichotomy (freedom of vs freedom from religion) by being written in the alternative - “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...” I think the founders came here, as you suggest, to escape oppression and to live freely according to their beliefs.  They didn’t want anyone telling them which god to worship or how to do it.  As the colonies grew and developed political significance and power, these purely religious sentiments gave rise to affiliated political sentiments - no taxation without representation, no billeting of troops in the home, etc.  But the fountainhead was to be free - to do as one thought fit, and from compulsion to do otherwise than one in fact believed was proper.  Plymouth was the first experiment, but I think Maryland was more the archetype - a place set aside, nominally, for Catholics, but which actually welcomed people of all faiths.  When one walks into a courtroom where, perhaps, a school prayer case is to be heard, you in your kipa or in the traditional garb of muslim women, and you are confronted with King James’ version of the ten commandments, you are not free from the court’s religion - nor would I, for one, feel unfettered in my own practices.  The court has chosen sides.

It’s ironic: the US was founded in part in response to state-sponsored religion and the intollerances that ensue therefrom, but those with the spirit to make such a radical break were by definition the zealots and extremists.  This rests our national identity an inherently fractured foundation.  But I see it as our national duty to mend those fractures, as best we can, even if it takes centuries - which it has - and to do so with respect for the hunger for freedom that drove pioneers across the oceans, rather than the theology that justified extermination of nonchristians and the dehumanization of nonbelievers.

There is a very apt and somewhat humorous column about this issue reprinted at

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0828-09.htm

It exposes many contradictions. Also w/r/t Jeremy’s post above, I recently finished a book of essays by Gore Vidal, and in one he claims that even the religious references in the Declaration of Independence were not Jefferson’s original writing, but added at the “request” of the Congress. Is anyone familiar with this?

Gratuitous quote:
“We’ll try to remain serene and calm
when Alabama gets The Bomb!”

That’s it. I am packing your bags right now and have already bought your plane ticket to Alabama. Judge Moore’s office says his schedule is full, but I’ve got a plan to whittle out some time for you to verbally squash him. Don’t concern yourself with the details (or the man with the tractor and shotgun who will be meting you at the airport.)